EP224: Interview with Nikki

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Reversing Diabetes with Delane. [00:00:02] Speaker B: MD podcast, where women who are confused and worried about their type two diabetes. [00:00:06] Speaker A: Come to learn strategies to fix it. I'm your host, Dr. Delane Vaughn. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Ladies, if you know that you are capable of doing badass things at work and for your family, but you're frustrated. [00:00:14] Speaker A: With why you can't seem to stop eating the chocolate cake, this podcast is for you. Let's talk. [00:00:20] Speaker B: Hey, there. [00:00:20] Speaker A: I'm so glad you could join me today. I have a special podcast for you. This is a podcast where I do a coaching call with a listener. She's agreed to have this call recorded so others can listen to it and see what coaching is like. This should be podcast number 224, and I will be back next week with another podcast. I hope you enjoy this. Talk to you later. [00:00:41] Speaker C: Here we go. [00:00:42] Speaker B: I want to welcome Nikki to the podcast. She's agreed to do a coaching call with me so that all the listeners can figure out what coaching is all about. So welcome, Nikki. [00:00:53] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:00:54] Speaker B: What do you want to coach on today? [00:00:58] Speaker C: Well, it seems I have a cycle that's been happening since my diagnosis, and, well, it's starting to get really tiring, and I need to change my mindset because how it's going now is I get my A one C twice a year. It's like I'm studying. I get that result that I want, and then I lose all of it. I drive straight to get the ice cream from the doctor. After I get my A one C, fall off the wagon until it's nearing that period of time for my next A one C, and then I have to start from a not so great place every single time. And it's just this roller coaster playing with my body and my brain. It's just not working out. And I need to get past this get it mentality when it comes to my A one C. So I want. [00:02:02] Speaker B: To make sure I'm understanding correctly. So you'll get close to getting an A one C draw that's scheduled. Say you're scheduled for September 25 or whatever to get your labs drawn, and in the weeks leading up to that, that's when you start making changes. [00:02:24] Speaker C: Three months before I get that blood work done, I'll start gearing back up. I'll start wearing my Dexcom again. I'll really do well because I don't take meds, jump right back on, and get all serious for three months until it's time for the A one C. And I do pretests from home because I will act now, test kits. I test my. Make sure it's right where I want it to be, get my test, and then eat the ice cream. [00:02:55] Speaker B: I see. So it's three months of eating junk. Cycled with three months of not eating junk. So, curiously, why do you think that it is that you do that? What is it about the three months of eating fabulous that requires a change? And, you know, I don't love that terminology. I eat good and I eat bad. I don't love that terminology in my life, but I think that that's pretty common. People understand that mindset that I eat the things that are healthy for three months, and then I go and I eat the things that are unhealthy for three months. What it is it about eating the things that are healthy for the three months that requires a change that your brain is like, I don't want to do that anymore. [00:03:45] Speaker C: I want to say maybe a feeling of being feeling deprived. It's a hard, hard thing. This time around, I have done a little bit of a change so I don't feel deprived. And that's allowing little mini chocolate bars whenever I feel the need to have something bad for me, I'd rather have a little bit of something not great in exchange for a big bowl of drink or piece of cake thing. It's almost like I've been let off of a leash and I'm just going crazy. [00:04:25] Speaker B: So the opposite of let off of leash is being on a leash, right? [00:04:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:30] Speaker B: So if you're eating healthy, you see it as being on a leash. [00:04:34] Speaker C: I guess, subconsciously, consciously, I'm excited about doing well and eating the right things and to cook and I love to make healthy meals. I love all of that. I love to brag that I'm doing well. Look at my Dexcom. My glucose right now is this. But then, on the other hand, yeah. [00:05:02] Speaker B: So what do you think? Like, thinking of the moment that you would have to go to the doctor and get your labs drawn and then coming home, or the three months after coming home or the three weeks after coming home. What feeling do you think that you would have to feel to continue to eat the way that you had been before the doctor's appointment? [00:05:30] Speaker C: I almost feel like if I had a high A one C and did not go, that would keep me going. I don't know. Or going more frequently would keep me. [00:05:41] Speaker B: So, curiously, if you had a highway A one C, what would you feel? [00:05:46] Speaker C: Shame. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Shame. Why shameful? [00:05:49] Speaker C: Because I know better. I know why. If I go and I get a high A one C, I know why it's high. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:58] Speaker C: I don't know what happened. No. [00:06:01] Speaker B: So what's wrong with the A one C being high? [00:06:07] Speaker C: Okay, so it's who I am. In college, if I didn't get an A look out, I would be doing all the extra credit to make up for it. But I was the one that studied and to get that a. [00:06:26] Speaker B: So it sounds like one part of it is that you want to be successful. Yes. But you're not interested in successfully completing. Maybe you are, but it's not the work. Maybe you're doing right now, but you're not interested in being successful like an iron man or climbing Mount Everest. Right. That's a form of success. Right. What is it about normalizing an A one C that you have a desire to be successful with? It's. [00:07:01] Speaker C: It's almost like a trophy. Like I climbed. [00:07:06] Speaker B: It's a trophy that says what, though? [00:07:10] Speaker C: That I'm successful. I've accomplished my goal. [00:07:16] Speaker B: But why is this particular goal important to you? Why is there a connection to this goal? [00:07:26] Speaker C: To feel proud that I can. [00:07:31] Speaker B: What if you don't have an A one C? That's normal. Other than feeling shame, what does it mean long term for you? [00:07:42] Speaker C: It means that I'm not working for it. I'm not doing my part in being healthy. [00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Why is it important to be healthy? [00:07:53] Speaker C: I've got children. I've got a grandson. I have a husband. I don't want to feel crappy. I was feeling awful when I was diagnosed. And then after three months of misbehaving. [00:08:10] Speaker B: You feel awful again. [00:08:12] Speaker C: I feel awful after a couple of days of misbehaving, mentally, physically, all of it. [00:08:22] Speaker B: I get what you think, that it's more the shame or the like. If my A one C. So you go for your three monThs, and your A one C was still bad, quote unquote bad, right. It was still higher than you wanted. Versus when you clean things up and you're good for three months and you go and your A one C is good, and then you have three months of not eating the way you know you need to be eating before you go into that. Three months of not eating the way you know you need to be eating. If that initial A one C or that a one C that you did was high, is there more shame that would keep you eating healthy, or is it more of fear or feeling bad or worried that would keep you eating healthy? [00:09:07] Speaker C: The shame. [00:09:09] Speaker B: The shame. How interesting. So bad. What is so bad about not doing that? Right. [00:09:22] Speaker C: So my aunt, you mentioned her in your last podcast, she's the one that I had mentioned previously about the Diet Coke and how the Diet Coke was more important to her than her life and she's finally getting it together. I feel like a preacher, and I'm just preaching to her all the time about it. I know how I feel when I see her not doing well. My kids, my husband, all my people in my circle, they want me to do well, too. And they cheer me on. They've got the pom poms. And when I don't do well, I see that same look that I feel in myself when I'm witnessing that with Abby. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah. You see in their eyes what you feel when you see your aunt. [00:10:18] Speaker C: Yes. [00:10:20] Speaker B: So that is probably why you have the cycle. Because when it comes to show your trophy, you want to make sure the trophy is there so that others can be proud of it, versus when there's no trophy to show, you don't need to, like, nobody's looking. There's nothing to show. Why are you not doing this for? [00:10:41] Speaker C: You're tough on me. [00:10:52] Speaker B: I don't mean to be, but, yeah, sometimes it is hard because that's what's keeping you in the cycle. Right? [00:10:59] Speaker C: Touch these nerves. You do it all the time. Even on the Facebook group. I'm a mom. I'm hotwired. Hardwired to make sure everybody else is taken care of. [00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So who's going to take care of you? [00:11:25] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. [00:11:29] Speaker B: I think that that's one of the most powerful things to see, and I'm going to curiously ask you, but a lot of times with women, I see that this mentality of I have to take care of them. It's almost like there's a limited amount of care that can go around. I can either take care of them or I can take care of me. And so I think the expansive challenge, or my welcome to you or challenge to you is like, how can I do both? Right? And everybody hears the idea of I've got to put my oxygen mask on before I apply somebody else's. And I do believe that's true. It's hard for me to take care of others if I'm not taking care of me. I think that there is truth to that, but I think that that continues the idea that I've got to choose one or the other. What if I can choose both? What if I can care for them and care for me? That's one challenge. But the question I asked you is like, who else is going to do it? And I think that this is a really important thing that maybe society doesn't do a great job of telling us, of teaching us, especially as women, that we aren't taught, that actually it's my job to take care of me, nobody else's job at all, and nobody else's job. But more than that, nobody else knows what I need the way I know what I need. [00:12:53] Speaker C: I mean, look how long it takes all these podcasts for us to finally get it. How are we going to possibly explain that to our loved, to our friends and coworkers and then expect them to. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Advocate for the stuff that we just maybe finally got them to understand, right? Yeah. So that explains a lot of why you're in this cycle. [00:13:23] Speaker C: Can I tell you a little story? [00:13:25] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:13:27] Speaker C: So, as you're saying this, I was at my son in law's birthday party. It was the end of the night. Most people had gone home. There were probably eight of us left, the kids, their significant other. And I had behaved. I had behaved really well. But my Dexcom was saying that my glucose was up to 188, and I could not for the life of me figure out what was going on. I was really upset. And my daughter asked me, what's wrong? I said, well, I'm up to 188, this is cellular concerned. And she said, well, what can you do about it? I said, maybe I can go for. Try to drink some water, get it down. And she said, all right, everybody up. Everybody left. Got up 1030 at night, and we're walking the streets of the neighborhood, and when we got back, it was still like 170. So she's like, let's go. And we went and walked the same loop all over again. And they didn't matter. We were together, whether we were walking down my numbers or not. When we got back, I did a fingerprick, and my glucose was like 130. The Dex count was off. Not me. Anyway, they did take care of me in a way that I didn't expect. I thought I'd have to go for a walk by myself. [00:14:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that it's nice to have somebody with you, but when you wait to require you to take care of you, for somebody to be with you, it always is out of your control. If you wait for somebody else to care for you, it will always be out of your control. It's the most powerless position we can. [00:15:18] Speaker C: Find ourselves in account on them, too. [00:15:23] Speaker B: It's nice to have an accountability buddy, as long as the story in our head isn't. If they're not doing it, it's okay for me to not do it. And I think the story in your brain right now and edit this if this isn't correct for you, but the story in your brain right now is if I don't have this A one C trophy to show, it's okay for me not to eat the way I know I need to. Does that. Does that resonate with you at all? Like, oh, I'm not getting my A one C done for a while, so I don't need to eat that way. [00:16:03] Speaker C: That's exactly what it is. Yes, exactly. When my husband says, let's go get ice cream, whereas now I would say, well, if we're going to do that, we're going to get the bikes and we're going to pedal to the ice cream place and back, and I'll just get a little bit. Otherwise, I'd be, yes, let's jump in the car. [00:16:30] Speaker B: And I kind of love that this is the example that came up for you, because this is why using shame and guilt does not drive long term lifestyle changes. Your actions are directed at a goal that is driven by avoiding shame versus your actions being driven by a goal that is to create health in your life. Can you see the difference there? [00:17:07] Speaker C: You just nailed it. Yeah, on the wrong ball, right? [00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah. It's good to see that. I think it's wonderful. I know that we, as humans, avoid all the unpleasant emotions, but I believe that our human bodies, we are human beings because we be. We are being. And part of being is feeling all of the feelings because they're telling us something about what's going on. There's information, just like feeling. A hot stove has information that's carried through our sensory organs to our brain, right. The feeling is trying to tell us something. The shame is trying to tell you that there's an external imposition of health on your body, on you, on your brain. There's something externally pushing you there. That's what shame is always going to be from. And of course, shame, the human being wants to hide from shame. So we don't tell anybody. This is where we find ourselves eating quietly in a corner or late at night after everybody's gone to bed or whatever. We hide our experience because we don't want others to know that we're not actually doing the thing that we're purporting, we're doing, that we're portraying ourselves to do versus if we're not having that external pressure to drive our experience. And instead, we're actually like, I just want to be healthy. It's one of those things. What did they say, what do I tell my kids? Character is the thing that you do when nobody else is watching. Right. Yeah. That is a characteristic that you are doing when nobody's watching because that's who you're becoming. Right. And we've talked about this in the group about who is the woman that you are going to be when you are just a healthy woman without type two diabetes? What does she do on vacation? What does she do after her a one C draw? Yeah. She probably has a victory dance, and hopefully she buys a new pair of shoes and maybe a nice handbag. But it's not like a three month off the rails experience because we had a great a one C. Right? Yeah. What do you think about that? [00:19:27] Speaker C: I think it stems back to that first doctor's appointment where I had switched primary care. Doctors got a really good doctor who sat me down, my first blood work and said, you're diabetic. And after watching my family and how it's affected them, it was the end of the world in my brain. I never want to feel that feeling again. Not doctor said it to me in any ill way. It was just the reality of what I had done to myself. [00:20:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And so maybe there is some element that needs to be unpacked about what I have done to the. I think it's Maya Angelou who said, we do the best we can with what we can until we know better. We do the best we can with what we know until we know better. And then we just do better. [00:20:36] Speaker C: Do better. [00:20:38] Speaker B: We just do better. Had you truly known that that food was causing you to be diabetic? [00:20:45] Speaker C: I knew. [00:20:47] Speaker B: Not enough. You weren't doing it right. When you know something, you do something with it. Right. Like, you don't touch hot stoves anymore. You had to do that once or twice before you knew. Stove's hot. That's uncomfortable. No, thank you. Right. There are certain things that, when, you know, you didn't leave your infant child around a pool alone without anybody to watch them because you truly and your soul of souls knew the risk associated with it. Right. [00:21:21] Speaker C: Right. Risk and responsibility. [00:21:24] Speaker B: Yes. There are so many times the way that our food is sourced in this country and the media portrays it, and all of these things, it's like. Yeah. I mean, like, Dairy Queen's probably not healthy, but it's on every night for an ad, so how bad can it really be? Or they were eating and it wasn't a problem for them. Maybe it won't be a problem for me, but that's not knowing it though, right? That behavior that set you up for that appointment with your doctor did not come from, it's always a problem, right? It came from, maybe it won't happen to me. Yeah. So I think giving ourselves grace that I was doing what I really thought. I mean, we all take risks in life, right? We've all looked at our phone and read a text when we'rE in the car. Maybe we haven't all done that, but, I mean, that's pretty common thing, that we're like, that's a risk. I probably shouldn't take it, but I do. I don't know, maybe not all of us have went out in a place where we're like, do I wear a mask right now? Am I going to get COVID? And even before COVID am I going to get influenza? I certainly saw that in my own experience. And maybe it's because I'm a healthcare provider and that was a situation that we found ourselves in. There's always an amount of risk that we're willing to take as human beings. However, most of the time we're not going to have to pay the consequence for that risk. And a lot of times with this food business, we believe the same thing. Like, oh, I'm willing to take that risk because maybe I'm not going to have to pay the long term consequence for that risk. Right. But the rude thing that we as humans do and that you're doing is like, oh, I was willing to take the risk, but then when it came to fruition, right, when the reality set in and you got the diagnosis, then you were kicking yourself in the teeth for it. Yes. What if you just say, oh, I thought I was doing the best I could and it wasn't there. Like, I don't know that I need to beat myself up for it. How does that land for you? [00:23:39] Speaker C: I feel like I would be lying to myself because I do know better. I know I wasn't doing my best. [00:23:49] Speaker B: Yeah. So what's wrong with lying to yourself, though? Because you were doing it one place or the other, right? And I don't even like to think of it as lying. I like to think of it as, like, wishful thinking. I was hoping it wouldn't turn out this way, but it turns out they were right and now I've got to stop doing that. [00:24:09] Speaker C: Right? You're right because I'm being honest. Except for when I'm not right. [00:24:19] Speaker B: Except for when the food's on the table and then I want to eat it. Right. But there is that part. There is that desire part that we make up a story in our head, and that's just the way the brain works. That's fine. But if your best friend brought to you this story and sAid, I think it was going to happen, I kept eating the stuff. I knew it was probably a problem. My aunt has it. You remember her? Yeah, I remember her. You would have had this conversation with your best friend and then she would have been like. And then I got the diagnosis. Would you have been like, yeah, because you were lying to yourself. You might be like, yeah, you probably saw it coming. But does it need to be riddled with guilt? [00:24:59] Speaker C: No, it would be more like, you know what? Today's done. Tomorrow is a new day. Let's go for it. [00:25:06] Speaker B: Time to shit or get off the pot. You got the information you need, right. [00:25:11] Speaker C: And I suppose I can give myself maybe an ice cream cone after an A, one C instead of months of ice cream cones. [00:25:20] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. And that is part of it is that there is. Do you. I think part of the issue is one that we remove that it's okay. Like a little bit's okay. We remove that thought. I think that's one of the most unhelpful thoughts that we as women give ourselves about food. That's not healthy. It's not that it's going to kill you today, but it's certainly not healthy or okay. And that kind of limits it. It's kind of like one cigarette. One cigarette ain't going to kill me. One cigarette ain't going to do me in. But if I smoke them every day for the next three months and I do that in a cycle for the next ten years, that's going to be an issue, right? [00:26:05] Speaker C: It is. [00:26:06] Speaker B: So what would it look like in your life if you shifted from having the goal of having a trophy to show people and having the goal of you being healthy on your terms, what would that look like? [00:26:22] Speaker C: Would certainly take away three months stress when I have to get back on the wagon and behave and do well. Better most of the time. [00:26:36] Speaker B: Yeah. You'd be better most of the time instead of some of the time. Yeah. What else? [00:26:41] Speaker C: It would probably get easier. Stuck with it and gave myself some grace and allowed myself a little bit of something. Something sometimes instead of. For three whole months. Yeah. [00:27:00] Speaker B: Do you find that when you're doing the three whole months that there is No. I mean, because even now you're like allowing yourself some grace with mini bars. Mini chocolate bars. Right. [00:27:13] Speaker C: I do find it's only been a couple with each period of time after that a one C, I'm not jumping in nearly as bad every time because I'm getting used to the lifestyle. I already have my grocery list of things I know that are safe to eat and I find that I continue with that. I just misbehave more often. And when I misbehave, my A one C doesn't go back up to eight where it was. It goes up to maybe six or six. So I'm not eating a cake a day. [00:27:52] Speaker B: Right? Of course. Yeah. [00:27:55] Speaker C: But it's still something. It's still something that doesn't physically feel good or mentally. [00:28:06] Speaker B: If you were living healthy on your terms, how frequently would those things be happening? [00:28:12] Speaker C: Where I misbehave? [00:28:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Or where you have a joy eat? [00:28:17] Speaker C: Have a what? I'm sorry? [00:28:18] Speaker B: A joy eat. Where you have just where you're eating food that's clearly not nutritionally valuable and just creating a little bit of joy in your life. How frequently do you think you can do that and have health on your terms? [00:28:35] Speaker C: Usually it's when I go to Six Flags. It's when I go on vacation. It's when I go to a birthday party or a cookout or that kind of thing. It's not an everyday. [00:28:47] Speaker B: So how frequently are you wanting to have the ice cream cones with your husband or the chocolate bars? Are those not in that category for. [00:28:54] Speaker C: You, the mini chocolate bars? I probably have two or three a week. [00:28:58] Speaker B: Okay. [00:29:00] Speaker C: Sometimes none at all. But if I do not more than two or three a week, the ice cream this summer, I think we only went out for ice cream twice. [00:29:12] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think part of it is kind of defining, and I know that this was a challenge I gave to you in the group, was like, what does it mean? What is it going to look like when you are living healthy on your terms? You're going to want to define that because it's going to keep you as a compass in that direction. If not, if we don't have that clarity. And it may be like, I want to have a piece of chocolate three times a week. That may be part of what that looks like for you. I'm not saying anything is right or wrong. [00:29:47] Speaker C: It seems shifty. [00:29:50] Speaker B: And when you're having like, well, I only am going to have those joy eats when I'm at Six Flags. And when I go out to eat with ice cream with my husband a couple of times a summer and twice a week or three times a week with chocolate bars, where are those falling in that joy eat category? I would get real clear about where it is that you believe living with a normal A one C for the rest of your life. How frequently are those experiences going to be engaged? Okay, because if it's shifty, what ends up happening is we're like, oh, but maybe it's okay, or maybe it's not okay. And then when our A one C is dumpy, then we're all, like, living in shame, right? [00:30:40] Speaker C: Yes. Well, to be fair, those little chocolate barbs, I add my daily carbs and I stay within range. But the ice cream, I always fall. [00:30:51] Speaker B: Off every time, and it may be fine even again. I would set it clearly as to what you expect will get you that normal A one C long term. Sometimes you can have those carbs, sometimes it doesn't matter if you stay in the carb range. It's the kind of carbs, it's the amount of high fructose corn syrup that's in them that still surges your insulin level so high that you stun your cells out. And you're just going to have to test and see. There's no magic answer here, but you're going to have to set your compass and go there and see what's actually, as you head in that direction, what's actually there for your health before you're going to be able to decide, is that something I can or cannot do? Right. [00:31:46] Speaker C: It did take an error to finally get it, and now I'm on the 80% dark chocolate mini mini and yesterday, 30 after one of those. [00:31:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And that may be like, persisting that, and you may just be living on the nice edge constantly of falling back over into insulin resistance versus falling out of it and into normal insulin function. Right. So that is part of it. But if you can remove that shame, you're not pressured so much in the three months before your a one C that then you need to feel like, oh, it's finally done, and I'm out of that pressure zone and the shame is not there. And I can have some pressure release a valve that releases that pressure for the next three months. [00:32:34] Speaker C: Right. And that's what it is, too. It's pressure holding my breath for three months. [00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And you're doing it because it's directed at, like, there's this external force driving you to pull that a one C down versus internally. I want to live healthy and how do I go forward from there? [00:32:58] Speaker C: I need a new ball to focus on. [00:33:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I would spend some time defining that for yourself because I think there's going to be a lot of good boundaries to work within. From that space, and I think that might get you out of the cycle. That's exhausting. [00:33:15] Speaker C: It is. [00:33:18] Speaker B: What do you think about that? [00:33:19] Speaker C: I've never said this out loud, and it wasn't until you had said something on your Facebook group that triggered this whole thought. And I was able to relate to it. I think it was to somebody else, but it made me realize that I was putting myself on a yo yo, and it's not healthy. [00:33:41] Speaker B: Yeah. So is that helpful for. [00:33:45] Speaker C: Very helpful. [00:33:46] Speaker B: Very, very. [00:33:47] Speaker C: I made notes. I've been writing. [00:33:49] Speaker B: Good. Well, I appreciate you coming on and doing this. You always know that you can always reach out to me anytime, and I'm happy to answer anything. [00:33:59] Speaker C: Thank you. This was emotional. [00:34:03] Speaker B: It can be emotional. Yes. There is crying in coaching. It can be emotional. All right, I am going to end the podcast. Bye.